Understanding the Bible
KJV
1Chron. 20:3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
NIV
1Chron. 20:3 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes. David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes, and he made them work at brickmaking. [a] He did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.
New American Standard Bible
1Chron. 20:3 He brought out the people who were in it, (A)and cut them with saws and with sharp instruments and with axes. And thus David did to all the cities of the sons of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 He also brought out the people who were in it, and (A)set them under saws, sharp iron instruments, and iron axes, and made them pass through the brickkiln. And thus he did to all the cities of the sons of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
The Message
1Chron. 20:3 He hauled great quantities of loot from the city and put the people to hard labor with saws and picks and axes.
2 Sam. 12:31 David emptied the city of its people and put them to slave labor using saws, picks, and axes, and making bricks. He did this to all the Ammonite cities. Then David and the whole army returned to Jerusalem.
The Amplified Bible
1Chron. 20:3 He brought out the people who were in it and set them at cutting with saws, iron wedges, and axes. So David dealt with all the Ammonite cities. And David and all the army returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And he brought forth the people who were there, and put them to [work with] saws and iron threshing sledges and axes, and made them labor at the brickkiln. And he did this to all the Ammonite cities. Then [he] and all the men returned to Jerusalem.
Vulgate
1Chron. 20:3 And the people that were therein he brought out and made harrows, and sleds, and chariots of iron to go over them, so that they were cut and bruised to pieces: in this manner David dealt with all the cities of the children of Ammon: and he returned with all his people to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And bringing forth the people thereof he sawed them, and drove over them chariots armed with iron: and divided them with knives, and made them pass through brickkilns: so did he to all the cities of the children of Ammon: and David returned, with all the army to Jerusalem.
The so many translations can either make it difficult to know just what the Bible is teaching us, or they help us know better. One Bible commentary states that a difference by only a tick mark in the Hebrew words for “cut” and “enslave” might have been cause for miscopying, and that David’s character was the deciding factor in deciphering the real meaning of what happened in this instance.
A clearer view of David can be seen from the following. “Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him. It may be that the Lord will look on mine affliction, and that the Lord will requite me good for his cursing this day.” (2Sam. 16:9-12).
“I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.” (Ps. 120:7).
“Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.” (2Sam. 23:14).
Since David was a very spiritual man, one of many “holy men” who “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost,” (2Pet. 1:21) and a man after God’s own heart—by God’s own admission—it only rings true that David couldn’t possibly have used torture as a method to subjugate his enemies.
That is a formidable argument, and one I stand by based on the principle that by two or three witnesses (in scripture) shall every word of truth be established. Thus, the scholars of the KJV version mistranslated 1Chron. 20:3 and 2 Sam. 12:31. The better translations are the newer versions, where the Ammonites were put in servitude, not tortured.
But that conclusion does bring into question the Vulgate translation as well, and even more so. Its description is even more graphic that the KJV. The Vulgate translation could easily have fueled the evils and brutality of the Inquisitions and the Crusades. At the least, it revealed something of the character of the church of Rome a few centuries after Christ, and of the Vulgate’s translator, “Saint” Jerome, doctor of theology of the same organization.
1Chron. 20:3 And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.
NIV
1Chron. 20:3 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes. David did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 and brought out the people who were there, consigning them to labor with saws and with iron picks and axes, and he made them work at brickmaking. [a] He did this to all the Ammonite towns. Then David and his entire army returned to Jerusalem.
New American Standard Bible
1Chron. 20:3 He brought out the people who were in it, (A)and cut them with saws and with sharp instruments and with axes. And thus David did to all the cities of the sons of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 He also brought out the people who were in it, and (A)set them under saws, sharp iron instruments, and iron axes, and made them pass through the brickkiln. And thus he did to all the cities of the sons of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.
The Message
1Chron. 20:3 He hauled great quantities of loot from the city and put the people to hard labor with saws and picks and axes.
2 Sam. 12:31 David emptied the city of its people and put them to slave labor using saws, picks, and axes, and making bricks. He did this to all the Ammonite cities. Then David and the whole army returned to Jerusalem.
The Amplified Bible
1Chron. 20:3 He brought out the people who were in it and set them at cutting with saws, iron wedges, and axes. So David dealt with all the Ammonite cities. And David and all the army returned to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And he brought forth the people who were there, and put them to [work with] saws and iron threshing sledges and axes, and made them labor at the brickkiln. And he did this to all the Ammonite cities. Then [he] and all the men returned to Jerusalem.
Vulgate
1Chron. 20:3 And the people that were therein he brought out and made harrows, and sleds, and chariots of iron to go over them, so that they were cut and bruised to pieces: in this manner David dealt with all the cities of the children of Ammon: and he returned with all his people to Jerusalem.
2 Sam. 12:31 And bringing forth the people thereof he sawed them, and drove over them chariots armed with iron: and divided them with knives, and made them pass through brickkilns: so did he to all the cities of the children of Ammon: and David returned, with all the army to Jerusalem.
The so many translations can either make it difficult to know just what the Bible is teaching us, or they help us know better. One Bible commentary states that a difference by only a tick mark in the Hebrew words for “cut” and “enslave” might have been cause for miscopying, and that David’s character was the deciding factor in deciphering the real meaning of what happened in this instance.
A clearer view of David can be seen from the following. “Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the Lord hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him. It may be that the Lord will look on mine affliction, and that the Lord will requite me good for his cursing this day.” (2Sam. 16:9-12).
“I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.” (Ps. 120:7).
“Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.” (2Sam. 23:14).
Since David was a very spiritual man, one of many “holy men” who “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost,” (2Pet. 1:21) and a man after God’s own heart—by God’s own admission—it only rings true that David couldn’t possibly have used torture as a method to subjugate his enemies.
That is a formidable argument, and one I stand by based on the principle that by two or three witnesses (in scripture) shall every word of truth be established. Thus, the scholars of the KJV version mistranslated 1Chron. 20:3 and 2 Sam. 12:31. The better translations are the newer versions, where the Ammonites were put in servitude, not tortured.
But that conclusion does bring into question the Vulgate translation as well, and even more so. Its description is even more graphic that the KJV. The Vulgate translation could easily have fueled the evils and brutality of the Inquisitions and the Crusades. At the least, it revealed something of the character of the church of Rome a few centuries after Christ, and of the Vulgate’s translator, “Saint” Jerome, doctor of theology of the same organization.
posted by David | 6:05 AM
4 Comments:
Well the father pope before he died gave statement long ago to say sorry for bad wrongs done by Catholic church. Theye did say sorry to public for crusades and other thing you can look into this. Church must guard against curupcion. Any churches can have this on inside. I'm still learn english. Pedro
Hello again, Pedro. And your english is sounding better than my spanish. Much better.
Its true the John Paul II admitted to the church's evils from the middle ages. But he ascribed it all to the evils of the age. He explained that it reflected the brutality of those days and the culture of Europe in those days.
But that's not exactly the truth. Because, its the church's role to be the good example and lead the people up to the higher standard. Instead the church led the nations to lower standards and the people were always trying to reform the priesthood, which it continually fought against. Hence the Inquisitions and persecutions.
Pedro, I'm not trying to get on the offensive. Every denomination has its dark side, even mine. But none other denomination has claimed infallibility at the top, and neither has the extensive persecutions come from any other church like it has from the church of Rome.
I hope I haven't done any damage to our relationship, Pedro. You are a good friend and I hope we can remain friends.
No problema, Senor. I am interesting to hear what people think about church, Jesu Christo and Santa Biblia. Pedro
Muchas gracias, hermano. Uno dia comprenderemos todo de la historia de la iglesia y la guerra grande entre de Cristo y Satanas.
Tu hermano en El Senor.
David
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