A comment on markcarlton's blog
My friend, markcarlton has a blog to which I commented. The first half of this post is his answer to my first comment to him. And then I give my answer to his answer.
markcarlton (15:29:30) :
First, of all, I will grant that you are not an antisemite, but any sort of doctrine that seeks to replace the literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the spiritual descendants of Abraham is not only unscriptural but anti semitic on the face of it. While Gentile believers have come to share in the covenant of promise through Abraham (Galatians) there is not indication is scripture that our inclusion has nullified the promises of God to the Jewish people. In fact in response to that suggestion Paul responded, simply, “May it never be!” (Romans 11:1)
Moving on, you can of course call the church “the New Israel,” but the Bible never does. No where does the Bible teach that the church has replaced Israel. Yes, David, God accepts us back one at a time, but there were national promises given to the Nation of Israel, and a covenant was made with the Nation of Israel, and the God who cannot change and who keeps his word will keep that covenant. As to the future salvation of the nation Israel, check out Romans 11:25-26:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uniformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in you own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “the deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove the ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant when I take away their sin.
I would also refer you to Zechariah 12:10:
And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so tat they will look upon Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first born.
That this day will surely come is confirmed in Revelation 1:7:
Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him…”
I agree with this statement you made:
And the church, as a whole, will know His judgment as much as anybody. They will know it more, because they were given more light, the gospel. They professed His glorified name, but never knew Him nor did His works. “He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
I also agree with this:
“Some of them, as well as some of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, will be saved…”
This mixed multitude that no one can count is whom Paul was referring in Romans 11:25 when he spoke of Israel being hardened “until the fullness of the gentiles have come in.” But as you your statement, “including Jews,” Is would say: Including Jews!!!??? No, Paul said, “then all Israel will be saved, just as it is written….for for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Take care, brother, and thank you for your contribution.
P.S. I also disagree with your view that the apostolic church “was His carry-on for His everlasting gospel (covenant).” The church, according to Ephesians, is a new man, a mystery not known in previous generations but now being revealed.
2 07 2009
David (22:36:40) :
Mark,
How do you understand Rom. 11:14?
Paul was saying that he hoped to save “some of” his kinsmen, the Jews. Then in the next verse he uses the more general, unqualified “them”, sounding all inclusive of the salvation of the whole Jewish nation. But even though he did not include the words, “some of” when referring to the Jews in verse 15, he had already established what he meant when speaking of his burden for their conversion in verse 14.
Verse one gives the same meaning. God didn’t cast away all His people. Paul was proof of that. But Paul adds that only those who were foreknown were kept. That is, those he referred to in chapter 8:29. Many are called, but few are chosen, and those not chosen are lost. (2Cor. 4:3,4). Only the elect obtained the inheritance, and the rest were blinded, as God had warned from the days of Isaiah. (6:9-12). And Jesus re-warned of this. (Matt. 13:14,15).
Jesus again warned of the same rejection in a different way, “Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets.
But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” (Lk. 13:26-28).
I don’t feel anti-Semitic any more than John did when he penned these words. “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.” (Jn. 5:16). The Jews blinded themselves and the truth needed to be told, as a way of provoking them to see the truth. “With the pure Thou wilt shew Thyself pure; and with the froward Thou wilt shew Thyself froward.” (Ps. 18:26).
But maybe you say, “That was then and this is now. Things are different among the Jews toward Jesus.” I don’t see it. Or maybe you say, “Things will get better in the future when God pours out His Spirit upon them and then all of them will be saved.”
That notion is very unscriptural. Not in the history of fallen mankind was all of God’s people converted. Even in the pure apostolic church Satan had his people. Coming out of Egypt Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, Nadab and Abihu, and many other full-blooded Israelites were in complete rebellion. Not to mention the 23,000 who died on the border of the promised land.
David made another plea to total consecration and faith, “after so long a time” (500 years after Moses) because so many Israelites perished because of unbelief and still were perishing in David’s day. There have always been the wheat and the tares in the congregation of the Lord.
The Lord has always loved His movement on earth. But there have always been those He waited long to “spew out,” “vomit out,” “shake out,” “destroy.” Yet, that corrupted component, even if it were the majority, would never be the tool of Satan to destroy the whole movement, which was predestinated.
Israel is not to be put on a pedestal; the Lamb of God is to be lifted up. “Behold your God!” “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.” “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.”
“All Israel,” as in “every Jew will be saved,” has never been scriptural and will never be. That is just wishful thinking. “All Israel,” as in God’s movement to reveal Himself to the world and all heaven, “will be saved.” But they will come from every nation, kindred, tongue and people, from the north, south, east and west, Jews and Gentiles alike. “And then shall the end come.” (Matt. 24:14).
Mark, I really am far from being anti-Semitic. Being candid toward Israel doesn’t make me a hater of the Jews.
markcarlton (15:29:30) :
First, of all, I will grant that you are not an antisemite, but any sort of doctrine that seeks to replace the literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the spiritual descendants of Abraham is not only unscriptural but anti semitic on the face of it. While Gentile believers have come to share in the covenant of promise through Abraham (Galatians) there is not indication is scripture that our inclusion has nullified the promises of God to the Jewish people. In fact in response to that suggestion Paul responded, simply, “May it never be!” (Romans 11:1)
Moving on, you can of course call the church “the New Israel,” but the Bible never does. No where does the Bible teach that the church has replaced Israel. Yes, David, God accepts us back one at a time, but there were national promises given to the Nation of Israel, and a covenant was made with the Nation of Israel, and the God who cannot change and who keeps his word will keep that covenant. As to the future salvation of the nation Israel, check out Romans 11:25-26:
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uniformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in you own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “the deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove the ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant when I take away their sin.
I would also refer you to Zechariah 12:10:
And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so tat they will look upon Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first born.
That this day will surely come is confirmed in Revelation 1:7:
Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him…”
I agree with this statement you made:
And the church, as a whole, will know His judgment as much as anybody. They will know it more, because they were given more light, the gospel. They professed His glorified name, but never knew Him nor did His works. “He shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
I also agree with this:
“Some of them, as well as some of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, will be saved…”
This mixed multitude that no one can count is whom Paul was referring in Romans 11:25 when he spoke of Israel being hardened “until the fullness of the gentiles have come in.” But as you your statement, “including Jews,” Is would say: Including Jews!!!??? No, Paul said, “then all Israel will be saved, just as it is written….for for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Take care, brother, and thank you for your contribution.
P.S. I also disagree with your view that the apostolic church “was His carry-on for His everlasting gospel (covenant).” The church, according to Ephesians, is a new man, a mystery not known in previous generations but now being revealed.
2 07 2009
David (22:36:40) :
Mark,
How do you understand Rom. 11:14?
Paul was saying that he hoped to save “some of” his kinsmen, the Jews. Then in the next verse he uses the more general, unqualified “them”, sounding all inclusive of the salvation of the whole Jewish nation. But even though he did not include the words, “some of” when referring to the Jews in verse 15, he had already established what he meant when speaking of his burden for their conversion in verse 14.
Verse one gives the same meaning. God didn’t cast away all His people. Paul was proof of that. But Paul adds that only those who were foreknown were kept. That is, those he referred to in chapter 8:29. Many are called, but few are chosen, and those not chosen are lost. (2Cor. 4:3,4). Only the elect obtained the inheritance, and the rest were blinded, as God had warned from the days of Isaiah. (6:9-12). And Jesus re-warned of this. (Matt. 13:14,15).
Jesus again warned of the same rejection in a different way, “Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets.
But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” (Lk. 13:26-28).
I don’t feel anti-Semitic any more than John did when he penned these words. “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay Him, because He had done these things on the sabbath day.” (Jn. 5:16). The Jews blinded themselves and the truth needed to be told, as a way of provoking them to see the truth. “With the pure Thou wilt shew Thyself pure; and with the froward Thou wilt shew Thyself froward.” (Ps. 18:26).
But maybe you say, “That was then and this is now. Things are different among the Jews toward Jesus.” I don’t see it. Or maybe you say, “Things will get better in the future when God pours out His Spirit upon them and then all of them will be saved.”
That notion is very unscriptural. Not in the history of fallen mankind was all of God’s people converted. Even in the pure apostolic church Satan had his people. Coming out of Egypt Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, Nadab and Abihu, and many other full-blooded Israelites were in complete rebellion. Not to mention the 23,000 who died on the border of the promised land.
David made another plea to total consecration and faith, “after so long a time” (500 years after Moses) because so many Israelites perished because of unbelief and still were perishing in David’s day. There have always been the wheat and the tares in the congregation of the Lord.
The Lord has always loved His movement on earth. But there have always been those He waited long to “spew out,” “vomit out,” “shake out,” “destroy.” Yet, that corrupted component, even if it were the majority, would never be the tool of Satan to destroy the whole movement, which was predestinated.
Israel is not to be put on a pedestal; the Lamb of God is to be lifted up. “Behold your God!” “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.” “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.”
“All Israel,” as in “every Jew will be saved,” has never been scriptural and will never be. That is just wishful thinking. “All Israel,” as in God’s movement to reveal Himself to the world and all heaven, “will be saved.” But they will come from every nation, kindred, tongue and people, from the north, south, east and west, Jews and Gentiles alike. “And then shall the end come.” (Matt. 24:14).
Mark, I really am far from being anti-Semitic. Being candid toward Israel doesn’t make me a hater of the Jews.
posted by David | 6:19 AM
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